tôi yêu bản dịchDefault Harbeth P3E

tôi yêu bản dịch
Default Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Hello.

Did someone of you compare this speakers, or another Harbeth vs ATC speakers? What are the
advantages and disadvantages?

Thanks

Marek
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
08-10-2009, 11:41 AM #2 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline
Senior Member
Join Date
May 2009
Location
England
Posts
994
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Yes, done the P3ESR V SCM7 many times.

The SCM7 is difficult to drive even at low volume levels and does require the 'right' amp. Naim seems to work well as they have good 'drive' and do get some bass from the 7's. The overall sound is clean and uncoloured but cool and sterile. At low volumes they sound light and bright and need quite high volume to obtain a fuller sound.

The P3ESR is easy to drive and has a full, solid, pacey and communicative sound. Large soundstage and stunning vocal quality, just good fun. They also work really well at low volume levels, you don't need to thrash them to get a balanced sound as you seem to need to do with so many speakers nowadays.
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
08-10-2009, 11:45 AM #3 marek-f
Guest
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Thank you... It looks so that the ATC are more (and likely better) at/for higher volumes.


Marek
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
08-10-2009, 12:44 PM #4 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline
Senior Member
Join Date
May 2009
Location
England
Posts
994
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Hi Marek,
Yes, the ATC's work better at high volume levels than they do at low volume levels, so for late night listenign or if you have neighbours, they might not be ideal.

On the other hand, the P3ESR works really well at low volume levels and also at high volume levels. In both instances, they produce a nice solid, pacey and large sound, one of the very best I've heard from a small speaker at any price and you don't need a big amp to drive them.
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
09-10-2009, 01:14 AM #5 ryder ryder is offline
Advanced Member
Join Date
Mar 2009
Location
Malaysia
Posts
243
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
I have not listened to the ATC but have read that it's an equally good product that is very neutral and uncolored and able to play at higher SPLs compared to Harbeth. hifi_dave is correct that the ATC will be more picky when it comes to amplifier matching as they seem to like a lot of good clean power from the likes of Bryston.
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
09-10-2009, 10:11 AM #6 A.S. A.S. is offline
Harbeth UK
Join Date
Jan 2006
Location
South of England, UK
Posts
5,137
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
It is really a challenge to adequately describe two loudspeakers, from two manufacturers which are different in just about every detail. In fact there is far less in common between them than different so any perceived similarities are only superficial.

Six points jump out at me after a little research:

1. Harbeth cabinets are tuned 'thin-wall' boxes following the BBC philosophy. The front and rear panels are both removable and this critically effects the tuning of the box.

2. Harbeth uses an injection moulded RADTAL2? plastic cone technology which behaves as a piston across the wide audio range.

3. The Harbeth cone does not need 'doping' - with a sticky gunk - to augment damping; this damping is performed (as it should be) in the cone itself not in a painted-on layer, which will inevitably be a little (or a lot) different from specimen to specimen.

4. Harbeth do not claim to be developing or supplying speakers to music recording studios, nor do we borrow technology appropriate to that market and user from our bigger speakers and apply it to our smaller ones. There is no relevance whatsoever to the loudness experienced in the monitoring room of a general purpose recording studio* and the typical listener at home.

5. In a Harbeth speaker the screws that hold the woofer and tweeter (and crossover) in place are accessible by the user. That means, you can yourself with nothing more than a simple screwdriver, replace any part of a Harbeth speaker.

6. Harbeth strongly believe that tweeters should be protected from 'little fingers'. As I've said before, we do not view the provision of spare parts as a profit centre as most companies do: unprotected domes will be damaged and will cost the user money in replacement parts. Our protected tweeters withstand probing, curious fingers.

This relates to designing 'rock speakers' here

Some related reading: here here here here and here

As to the performance of the P3ESR v. the M40 side by side in a broadcast/post production studio at normal, domestic friendly listening levels read a user's report here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Harbeth speakers are used and designed for the sort of listening levels experienced in a broadcast studio for the recording of speech and acoustic music in a typical home environment at about 85dB. As explained here before, that is a totally different design objective to designing for 120dB+ listening.

Speakers designed for very high sound pressure listening cannot sound full and natural at a significantly lower level: that is a fact of psychoacoustics. So the first question that the would-be buyer should pose to the speaker manufacturer is "what loudness are your speakers optimised for". The answer to this tells you much about their appropriateness for use at home at moderate listening levels, esp. at night with neighbours through the wall.
Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
09-10-2009, 04:03 PM #7 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline
Senior Member
Join Date
May 2009
Location
England
Posts
994
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Quote Originally Posted by ryder View Post
I have not listened to the ATC but have read that it's an equally good product that is very neutral and uncolored and able to play at higher SPLs compared to Harbeth. hifi_dave is correct that the ATC will be more picky when it comes to amplifier matching as they seem to like a lot of good clean power from the likes of Bryston.
The SCM7 doesn't (in my experience) go as loud as the P3ESR. It's a bit like the old LS3/5A in that it takes a lot of power input to make it sound right and then it starts banging on the end stops. There's no damage but they aren't happy if you like a bit of head banging.

I like my Rock music and I like it loud and for this the SCM7 is not up to it IMO even with a big Bryston. The P3ESR satisfies my tastes and does it with even a small amp because it isso much easier to drive.

Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised by all the Harbeth range as I was expecting them to be a bit lacking in the volume department but they are not. I have been thrashing the 7ES-3's this afternoon with a bit of Hendrix, Zeppelin, Nitin Sawhney, Muddy Waters and M.Jackson and there is no sense of strain or even of them running out of steam. They produce the goods with no excuses.
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
09-10-2009, 05:19 PM #8 yeecn
Guest
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Is the ordering of the listing more or less reflects where Harbeth's secret lies?

I find it interesting to see "think-wall" boxes comes first in the listing. Cabinet design has been a fascinating subject for me lately. I have been paying attention to speaker boxes that I came across. I am more or less certain that speakers with thick walls will sound thin and lean on low volume - which is most of the higher end speakers. Some floor standers has got a long organ pipe like resonance tube. My last speaker (which I kept for less than 2 months) was of this design. The bass is too lazy, too diffused and lacking in definition. The really cheap Japanese speakers with fiberboard boxes can make a lot of noises even at low volume, but it is hard to call it music.

Molded plastic is another material that I find interesting. When I got my new laptop computer (Dell XPS) I was puzzled by why the speakers sounded so thin. Then I realized it is all in the notebook body. The Dell XPS has got a slick and lean metallic body whereas my old Dell Inspiron has got a bulky molded plastic body, and it acts as a very good resonance box. I have a tiny computer speaker with the same type of thin-walled molded plastic body; and that tiny thing can play LOUD with a lot of rich overtones!

I wondered whether molded plastic is able to scale to a full size speaker cabinet and produce convincing mid and lower bass. It will probably sounds like a cello or piano made of plastic. But I have not heard a cello made of plastic. I would be interested to find out.

I am new to the audiophile world, but I have not heard any other speakers that sound like Harbeth yet. More than once I have friends walking into my house thinking that there is somebody playing piano in my house. The life-like mid and lower bass response with the crystal clear mid and treble can make it sounds like there is a chamber ensemble playing in my house.
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
09-10-2009, 10:58 PM #9 A.S. A.S. is offline
Harbeth UK
Join Date
Jan 2006
Location
South of England, UK
Posts
5,137
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
I hadn't written them in any contrived order, just as they occurred to me, but (again) your insight seems very apt. I read your previous comments on the magic of the thin walled cabinet and I have to admit, that it made me think deeply. It is far more subtle than it seems.
Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
10-10-2009, 07:37 PM #10 marek-f
Guest
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
Thanks for allanswers...

Small question, what is the diameter of the Harbeth RADIAL2?

110mm or 5" ?

Marek
Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
11-10-2009, 06:00 AM #11 ryder ryder is offline
Advanced Member
Join Date
Mar 2009
Location
Malaysia
Posts
243
Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR vs ATC SCM7
hifi_dave,

I am generally comparing between ATC an

Kết quả (Anh) 2:

I love translations
Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Default
Hello. Did someone of you this compare speakers, or another Harbeth vs ATC speakers? What are the Advantages and Disadvantages? Thanks Marek Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 08-10-2009, 11:41 AM # 2 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline Senior Member Join Date May 2009 Location England Posts 994 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Yes , done the P3ESR ​​V SCM7 many times. The SCM7 is Difficult to drive at low volume levels even level and does require the 'right' amp. Seems to work well Naim As They have good 'drive' and so get some bass from the 7's. The overall sound is clean and uncoloured but cool and Sterile. At low volumes light and bright sound chúng quite high volumes and need a fuller sound lấy. The P3ESR ​​is easy to drive and has a full, solid, Pacey and Communicative sound. Large soundstage and stunning vocal quality, just good fun. They also work really well at low volume levels, you do not need to add to get a Balanced thrash sound as you Seem to need to by many speakers compared with nowadays. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 08-10-2009, 11: 45 AM # 3 Marek-f Guest Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Thank you ... It looks compared rằng ATC are more (and Likely better) at / for Higher volumes. Marek Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 08-10 -2009, 12:44 PM # 4 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline Senior Member Join Date May 2009 Location England Posts 994 Default Re: ATC SCM7 Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs Marek Hi, Yes, the ATC's work better at high volume at low levels due to the volume of coal chúng levels, than for late night or if you have neighbors listenign, chúng to might not be ideal. On the other hand, works really well at the P3ESR ​​low volume levels and at high volume levels cũng. In cả instances, chúng tạo a nice solid, Pacey and large sound, one of the very best I've Heard from a small speaker at any price and you do not need a big amp to drive added. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 09-10-2009, 01:14 AM # 5 ryder ryder is offline Advanced Member Join Date Mar 2009 Location Malaysia Posts 243 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 I have not listened to the ATC but have read it's safe mà Equally good product That is very neutral and uncolored and Able to play at Higher sánh to Harbeth SPLs. ATC is correct hifi_dave là khi có more picky Comes As They Seem to amplifier matching to like a lot of good clean power from the likes of Bryston. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 09-10-2009, 10:11 AM # 6 ASAS is offline Harbeth UK Join Date Jan 2006 Location South of England, UK Posts 5.137 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 It is really a challenge to adequately describe two LOUDSPEAKERS, from two manufacturers are different mà print just about every detail. In fact there is far less common giữa print add khác coal than any similarities are only superficial Perceived. Six points jump out at me after a little research: 1. Harbeth cabinets are tuned 'thin-wall' theo boxes BBC philosophy. The front and rear panels are both removable and this critically effects the tuning of the box. 2. An injection molded dùng Harbeth RADTAL2? plastic cone behaves as a piston mà technology across the wide audio range. 3. The cone does not need Harbeth 'doping' - with a sticky gunk - to augmented damping; this damping is Performed (as it shouldnt be) in the cone Itself not in a painted-on layer, inevitably be a little sẽ (or a lot) specimen to specimen khác. 4. Harbeth do not claim to be Developing or supplying to music recording studios speakers, nor by the appropriate technology to mà borrow chúng market and our users from bigger speakers and apply it to our smaller ones. There is no relevance whatsoever to the loudness experienced in the monitoring room of a general purpose recording studio and the typical listener * at home. 5. In a Harbeth the screws speaker woofer and tweeter mà hold the (and crossover) in place are accessible by the user. That means again, you can yourself with nothing more than a simple screwdriver, replace any part of a speaker Harbeth. 6. Strongly believe mà tweeters Harbeth nên protected from 'little fingers'. As I've said all before, We do not view the PROVISION of spare parts as a profit center as nhất companies by: unprotected Domes Will Be Damaged and will cost the user money printed replacement parts. Our protected tweeters withstand probing, curious fingers. This relates to designing 'rock speakers' here Some related reading: here here here here and here As to the performance of the P3ESR ​​v. the M40 side by side in a broadcast / post production studio at normal, friendly Domestic read a user's listening levels report here. ------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ * Harbeth speakers are used and Designed for the sort of listening levels experienced in a broadcast studio for the recording of speech and acoustic music in a typical home environment at about 85dB. As Explained here is before, that is a totally objective khác design to designing for 120dB + listening. Speakers Designed for very high sound pressure không listening sound full and natural at a significantly lower level: that is a fact of psychoacoustics. So the first question would-be buyer rằng shouldnt pose to the speaker manufacturer is "what của speakers are optimized for loudness". The answer to this Tells you much about appropriateness for use at home chúng at moderate listening levels, esp. at night with neighbors through the wall. Alan A. Shaw Designer, owner Harbeth Audio UK Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 09-10-2009, 04:03 PM # 7 hifi_dave hifi_dave is offline Senior Member Join Date May 2009 Location England Posts 994 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Quote Originally Posted by ryder View Post I have not listened to the ATC but have read it's safe có có Equally good product is very neutral and uncolored and Able to play at Higher sánh to Harbeth SPLs. ATC is correct hifi_dave là khi có more picky Comes As They Seem to amplifier matching to like a lot of good clean power from the likes of Bryston. The SCM7 does not (in my experience) go as loud as the P3ESR. It's a bit like the old LS3 / 5A printing takes a lot of as little power to make it sound right input and then it starts banging on the end stops. There's no damage but chúng not happy if you like a bit of head banging. I like my rock music and I like it loud and for this the SCM7 is not up to it even with a big Bryston IMO. The P3ESR ​​satisfies my tastes and does it with a small amp thậm vì isso much Easier to drive it. Actually, I 've been pleasantly surprised by all the range as I was expecting Harbeth to be a bit lacking added in the volume department but chúng are not. I được thrashing the 7ES-3's this afternoon with a bit of Hendrix, Zeppelin, Nitin Sawhney, Muddy Waters and M.Jackson and there is no sense of strain or even level of running out of steam added. They Produce the Goods with no excuses. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 09-10-2009, 05:19 PM # 8 yeecn Guest Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Is the ordering of the listing more or less reflects where Harbeth's secret lies ? I find it interesting to see "think-wall" in the listing Comes First boxes. Cabinet Đã a fascinating design subject for me lately. I được paying attention to speaker boxes I came across mà. I am more or less with thick walls Certain mà speakers will sound thin and lean on Low Volume - Most of the Higher mà end speakers. Some floor Standers pipe organ has got a long tube like resonance. My last speaker (mà I kept for less coal 2 months) was of this design. The bass is too lazy, too diffused and lacking definition printing. The really cheap Japanese speakers with fiberboard boxes can make a lot of noises at low volume even level, but it is hard to call it music. Molded plastic material is another interesting That I find. When I got my new laptop computer (Dell XPS) I was puzzled by why the speakers sounded thin in comparison. Then I Realized it is all in the notebook body. The Dell XPS has got a slick and lean body còn metallic my old Dell Inspiron has got a bulky plastic molded body, and it Acts as a very good resonance box. I have a tiny computer speakers with the same type of thin-walled plastic molded body; và tiny thing can play with a lot of rich LOUD overtones! I wondered nếu molded plastic is thể scale to a full size speaker cabinet and mid and upper bass tạo convincing. It sounds like a cello will lẽ or piano made ​​of plastic. But I have not Heard a cello made ​​of plastic. I would be interested to find out. I am new to the audiophile world, but I have not any other speakers Heard That sound like Harbeth yet. More than once I have friends walking Into my house thinking there is somebody playing piano mà in my house. The life-like mid and upper bass response with the crystal clear mid and treble sounds can make it like there is a chamber ensemble playing in my house. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 09-10-2009, 10:58 PM # 9 ASAS is offline Harbeth UK Join Date Jan 2006 Location South of England, UK Posts 5.137 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 I Had not contrived in any order Written speaker added, just as chúng lỗi to me, but (again) very của insight seems? apt. I read the comments on the previous của magic of the thin walled and I have to admit cabinet, that it made ​​me think deeply. It is far more subtle than it seems?. Alan A. Shaw Designer, owner Harbeth Audio UK Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 10-10-2009, 07:37 PM # 10 Marek-f Guest Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 Thanks for allanswers ... Small question, what is the diameter of the Harbeth RADIAL2? 110mm or 5 "? Marek Reply With Quote Reply With Quote 11-10-2009, 06:00 AM # 11 ryder ryder is offline Advanced Member Join Date Mar 2009 Location Malaysia Posts 243 Default Re: Harbeth P3ESR ​​vs ATC SCM7 hifi_dave, I am Generally Comparing the between ATC Security